techPresident - MTV - Comments

more on the New Hampshire results

freedomman121 — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 01:17:32 -0500

Not only were there many anomalies cited in the vote counts in New Hampshire, it was so bad that in the face of many obstacles, recounts were initiated for both the Republican and Democratic results.

The recounts have since been derailed, with more fraud and tampering discovered in the process. (a little net research will lend you a wealth of info on this)

So I'm sorry Michael, but no reasonable person can accept vote counts or exit poll results on the youth vote or any other demographic, as being at all accurate in the face of such questionable circumstances.

Paul wrote...

freedomman121 — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:53:39 -0500

"The proof is in the final polling results from Iowa, New Hampshire, Michigan, Florida, Nevada and South Carolina.

Ron Paul was defeated among young voters by either Huckabee, McCain, or Romney in each of those states, and in some states more than one candidate drew more of the youth vote."

Michael, you conveniently did not address these FACTS. Please do so this time.

FACT: Ron Paul received more in donations from supporters (real, live people Michael) than any other Republican candidate in Q4. Feel free to check the FEC report if in doubt.

FACT: Ron Paul received more in donations from members of the military (real, live people Michael) than any other candidate Republican, or Democrat. For that matter, Ron Paul received more in donations from the military in Q4 than ALL of the other remaining candidates COMBINED.

FACT: Ron Paul received more in donations in a 24 hour period, (from real, live people Michael) than any other Presidential candidate ever in history, raising over $6 million dollars on December 16th 2007. This broke his previous record of $4.3 million dollars raised on November 5th 2007 (from real, live people Michael)

FACT: Major polls taken for political purposes are designed to elicit the results desired by the pollster. The pollster often in the employ of one of the candidates or parties.

Also, I wrote this: "Now Ron Paul's supporter's votes being counted accurately, in this day of Diebold voting machines, and closed-door back room vote counts, is a separate issue"

It is ancient news at this point that the parameters of support that can be "controlled" (telephone polls, vote counts, media coverage, etc.) vary wildly with those that can not (donations from supporters, donations from members of the military, rallies with thousands of supporters, and online, text-message, and real-life straw polls).

The biggest fact of all Michael is, that no matter what data I, or anyone else provides, you will simply choose not to recognize it, and "claim" that what you *think* has not been disproven.

We have been dealing with this ignorance for almost a year now. If Ron Paul's supporters vote in an online poll, they "tilted the results", or "swarmed the poll", or "posted the link to it on their support websites" (as if the other candidates supporters couldn't do the same...if they had supporters that is). If Ron Paul's supporters attend real-live straw polls, they were "bussed in from out-of-state", or "showed up in unfair numbers" (?). Or, in the case of the San Francisco straw poll, when the huge number of Ron Paul supporters became apparent, the straw poll was quickly canceled.

When Ron Paul's supporters donate more to him in a 24 hour period (all small donations from real people, not special interest groups, as Ron Paul does not receive donations from those entities) [if this isn't a super strong show of support, I don't know what is] than any other Presidential candidate in American history, it is quickly dismissed as "online money", as if it's just Monopoly money or something, or it is not reported at all.

If Ron Paul draws more college students (typically young people) at his rallies than the other candidates could ever dream of, well, "they were young and stoned and thought they were at a Bill Clinton rally".

When Ron Paul comes in 2nd place in Maine with the delegate count, it's not reported.

When Ron Paul comes in 2nd, or many say 1st, in the Louisiana primary, all the votes are not counted, and the "official" results are not announced.

In New Hampshire, all sorts of vote count fraud have been documented, so we can't trust any supposed vote or exit poll results.
Seriously Michael, I could go on for days with FACTS.

Michael, if you haven't figured out by now, that the establishment, including the MSM, are doing all in their power, including vote count fraud, poll result manipulation etc. to silence/smear/squash/discount/ignore/down play Ron Paul, then I have to wonder where you've been all these months.

Michael, you prove to me that any poll results that you go by, and any vote counts in the primaries (keep in mind those pesky Diebold machines, and back room vote counts) are honest and accurate, then you and your tale will have some merit. Otherwise, it's all just another ill-researched hack job.

Response to freedomman121's second post

Michael Connery — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:15:48 -0500

Please Michael, find me proof that McCain, Romney, or Huckabee can draw college students in numbers close to this.

The proof is in the final polling results from Iowa, New Hampshire, Michigan, Florida, Nevada and South Carolina.

Ron Paul was defeated among young voters by either Huckabee, McCain, or Romney in each of those states, and in some states more than one candidate drew more of the youth vote.

Tell me why that is wrong and I'll listen, but until then, nothing any Paul supporter has posted to this thread has disproved any of my statements.

To Freedomman121

Michael Connery — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:13:03 -0500

Fact, Ron Paul has not won the youth vote in any Republican Caucus or Primary, as I linked in my original comment.

Straw polls are meaningless when you lose the real thing.

I'm not claiming that Ron Paul doesn't have youth support, merely that his youth support is nowhere near as strong as Obama's and that his youth support isn't translating into victories among conservative youth at the polls.

Nothing you said disproves that. I'm sorry, but there is no arguing with the CNN exit polling data.

and in regards to Ron Paul and young voters...

freedomman121 — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 22:46:42 -0500

Michael, I don't know where you've been hiding, but that Ron Paul has HUGE support from the younger folks is old news. While McCain and Romney attract the "blue hairs", Ron Paul is huge with the kids. His rallies at universities match or exceed those of Obama and Hillary in numbers of supporters. I won't go on all day, though I could, so I'll leave you with this link to Ron Paul's rally at the University of Michigan (home of Mitt Romney), where there were some 2,500+ supporters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-71IwDWRf8 (there are additional parts to this)

Please Michael, find me proof that McCain, Romney, or Huckabee can draw college students in numbers close to this.

Ron Paul's rallies draw thousands, when the the other Republican candidates draw hundreds.

Now Ron Paul's supporter's votes being counted accurately, in this day of Diebold voting machines, and closed-door back room vote counts, is a separate issue

Michael, I'll say again that I am surprised at your lack of knowledge of Ron Paul's youth support. I'll assume that you will go back and do some much-needed research before writing any more on this topic.

On a side note, Ron Paul's rally in Philly, on Veterans Day, drew supporters of all ages in the number of 5,000+. (real, live people Michael)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxGq1mXByJs

Find me any evidence of the other Republican candidates drawing any numbers like this.

To: Michael Connery

freedomman121 — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 22:06:30 -0500

Michael,

FACT: Ron Paul has won more real-live straw polls than any other Republican candidate. You know, straw polls where real live people attend and vote.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/straw-poll-results/

FACT: Ron Paul has won almost double the number of real-live straw polls of all the other remaining Republican candidates combined.

FACT: Ron Paul received more in donations from supporters (real, live people Michael) than any other Republican candidate in Q4. Feel free to check the FEC report if in doubt.

FACT: Major polls taken for political purposes are designed to elicit the results desired by the pollster. The pollster often in the employ of one of the candidates or parties.

So Michael Connery, you were trying to say...?

Obama Pizza Rap feat. Obama Girl!!

Crunchy — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:46:09 -0500

EVERYONE’s got a crush on Obama… presenting the brand new Obama Pizza Rap featuring Obama Girl:

http://digitalfuntown.squarespace.com/dft-blog/2008/2/4/obama-pizza-rap-...

So what is your point

Michael Connery — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 11:13:21 -0500

So then what is your point? I wrote a post about young voters and online organizing for a youth-focused event. I've spoken to many experts in the field of youth civic participation, and I myself am considered an expert in the field. Everyone recognizes either 18 - 24 or 18 - 29 as defining the youth cohort, so your argument is not only uninformed but irrelevant. If you insist on some ludicrous 18 - 40 range as defining "young voters" you're responses have nothing to do with what I'm writing about.

Also, it's not a shocker that more youth support Obama than Paul, but it's incredibly salient to my argument that Ron Paul's support in the MTV Flektor polling is highly abnormal and not representative of youth opinion as a whole. If you'd like to back up your arguments with links and facts (as I have done) I'd be happy to respond, otherwise I'm done with this conversation.

Do you really get paid for this?

mavtek — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:26:38 -0500

Michael, while you tell me to learn to read, I must ask you in kind to do the same. I said the Majority of those who voted for Paul were under the age of 40. In most of the polls you linked you can see that nearly 20% of those who voted for Paul are between the ages of 18-29. Oh and BTW, if you've ever been to a young Republican club you'd know all too well that under 44 is considered young for the GOP.

Again what a shocker, more young people support Obama than they do Ron Paul. Again this is like saying Reese Witherspoon has more young fans than Goldie Hawn. Reese is young and hip and she's all over the media, Goldie, not so much. Unfortunately it would seem that while many young people get online, a solid majority still listen to journalist hacks on television and on websites like this.

Learn to Read

Michael Connery — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:31:31 -0500

Um, nothing you said disproves anything I wrote. Beyond that, you seem to be willfully misreading some of my links. Oh, and thanks for your flip tone. It's very conducive to rational debate.

On Ron Paul's blog, there were multiple posts about this event, and the main thread had over 130 comments. Nothing like that existed on the other candidate sites. And a simple Google News and Web search for Ron Paul MTV Myspace pulled up a lot more than 2 hits.

As for your "debunking" of my polls, you should learn to actually read polls - everyone one of those links provides an age breakdown. Are you seriously saying that Ron Paul won the youth vote in any state thus far in a GOP contest? If Ron Paul is the GOP "youth candidate," how do you explain that? (Oh, an BTW - "youth" is typiclaly defined as 18 - 24 or 18 - 29. The fact that you're trying to say it is 18 - 44 is laughable).

Thanks for admitting that there is more Ron Paul activity for this event on the net than for any other candidate. As well as pointing out out that Ron Paul "gained MySpace friends" this week. Obama did too, and about as many. And Obama still has twice as many over all. I think that helps proves my point about Obama's popularity with youth.

As for direct comparisons between Obama, Clinton and Ron Paul, it's simple math. More young people have participated in every Democratic Primary than Republican. Obama typically garners 60 percent of that vote, adn Hillary around 30. In a less populated contest, Ron Paul never breaks the 30 percent mark. It's pretty simple.

You can get the percentages at the CNN links I posted in my previous comment, and you can get the hard number breakdowns at CIRCLE.

Wow, no credibility, do you get paid for this?

mavtek — Sun, 03 Feb 2008 23:04:00 -0500

Fact - Huckabee won the youth vote in Iowa

[B]Fact: Huckabee won Iowa period, and the link you provided has no information regarding age.....[/B]

Fact - McCain won the youth vote in Florida

*Fact: McCain won Florida period, but thanks for proving my point for me, 65% of the votes Ron Paul received in Florida were from people under the age of 44 according to the link you provided. *

Fact - Romney won the youth vote in Michigan

*Fact: Romney won Michigan period. Again though thank you for proving my point of those who voted for Paul nearly 40% were under 29 another 20% were under 44.*

Fact - Romney won the youth vote in Nevada

*Fact Romney won Nevada period. Again though of those who voted for Paul in Nevada nearly 50% were under the age of 44. Again proving my point for me.*

Fact - McCain won the youth vote in New Hampshire

*Fact: McCain won period, but again the majority that voted for Paul were under 39 look at your link you provided....*

Fact - Huckabee won the youth vote in South Carolina

*Fact: Of those, by your own link, 40% that voted for Paul were under 44.*

These are every state for which they have exit polls.

Fact - There is FAR more activity about this event on the Ron Paul website than on that of the other candidates.

*The only thing I saw was a small mention under the event section, hours later they put up the youtube of the event under the blog. So honestly I have no idea what you are talking about.*

Fact - there was far more activity on the web in general in support of Ron Paul for this event.

*Fact there is far more activity on the web in general for Ron Paul than most of the candidates combined. You do realize he has 106,000 meetup members according to your own site.*

Fact - Ron Paul's favorability ratings, when compared to that of Obama and Clinton are totally outside what every single primary poll and young voter poll tells us should be the case.

*Fact: Obama and Clinton get a million times more media coverage than Ron Paul. Fact young people consider themselves more inclined to vote democrat than Republican so I doubt many of them have even heard of or researched Ron Paul at all. Oh and which primary poll targeted toward young people compare Ron Paul to Obama and Hillary?*

Fact - FAR more young people support Obama than Ron Paul.

*I'm shocked! This is similar to the shocking notion that Reese Witherspoon is more popular with young people than Farrah Fawcett. You might have to think about that one. Sure Ron is popular among many young people, but we supporters are only so good about getting his name out there, it's not like we have several hours of media coverage daily. I think I could blame this more on people like you than me.*

At the end of the day, there is an analytical leap on my piece, but it has a strong and sound basis in everything we know about young voters and Ron Paul.

*Well ok, the only thing I might have mentioned is that while Paul supporters are not large in number they are large in energy and passion. This wouldn't even take much of a leap.*

I admit that in Googling I found no evidence to suggest that Ron Paul supporters spammed the polling, but I don't see evidence for swarming Digg or Reddit either. It's just something that Paul's grassroots followers do. I'm not suggesting anything nefarious, merely that Paul supporters legitimately swamped the polling. It's decentralized activism in support of their candidate in the best possible sense - totally organic. But none the less it reveals the MTV/MySpace events as an online battlefield for which campaigns can and must mobilize their supporters.

*Well to be honest I consider myself to be one of those "Paul supporters" this particular weekend I believe most of us were out canvassing or waving signs. That's not to say some just hung out online, but I think it's an even stronger indication that Paul's message resonates with the audience on Saturday. For more evidence it would seem your site showed Paul gained another 5000 to 6000 MySpace friends on Saturday. A sharp increase in my estimation, one might realize that maybe he indeed did well on MTV regardless of what you think his supporters may have done.

Thanks for reporting at all on our candidate though, if you do happen to search for Ron Paul in the news you might find an astounding 2 results or so. Even with that I'm fairly happy with our two 2nd place finishes and our recent 19% 3rd place. Not bad considering Rudy and Fred and Edwards got around 20 times the media coverage we have and our candidate still able to stay in the running.*

"The Net interprets

Tex MacRae — Sun, 03 Feb 2008 20:28:34 -0500

"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.

[...]

The meaning of the phrase has grown through the years. Internet users have proven it time after time, by personally and publicly replicating information that is threatened with destruction or censorship. If you now consider the Net to be not only the wires and machines, but the people and their social structures who use the machines, it is more true than ever. "

The Ron Paul movement is like a bird with one wing pulled off by the MSM and GOP party hacks. It keeps trying to fly anyway.

skepticism is setting in

Freedomfighter — Sun, 03 Feb 2008 19:29:10 -0500

I do not think it is Ron Paul supporters tampering with the results. I think a sense of skepticism is setting in with Obama. Since Ron Paul has been in Congress for ten years, he has a record to prove his credibility.

Sounds to me the Obama voter is not voting for Obama as much as voting against Clinton........very interesting.

MYV/MySpace Postmortem

Dee — Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:45:52 -0500

During the last half of this, I was puzzled by the percentages in the poll answers. It looked to me like the Ron Paul online devotees were trying to steer the results. There were no safeguards to prevent this. Anyone could vote however they wanted for any answer all the way through. I don't think we can take these "results" too seriously. Likewise, the MoveOn results, because this was not a big enough group to represent the whole membership.

Facts