techPresident - John McCain - Comments

The Premise of the Poll

Nancy Scola — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:55:35 -0400

The question posed by the poll is whether or not a president of the United States needs to personally know how to use the Internet in order to lead in 2008, and the second option clearly offers the take on the topic that you seem to be interested in. In response to the question "Does an American president today need to personally understand how to use email, search engines, and other basic online tools and platforms in order to be an effective leader?" it reads "No, not as long as a POTUS has a firm understanding of the Internet's impact." Far from resting this exercise on that assumption that a president does need first-hand experience with all things online, that's the very question being polled and debated.

Changing The Question

EyeblastTV — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:55:05 -0400

The techPresident poll, and this entire debate, is premised on the belief that the next president needs to know how to use the Internet, and to in fact use it regularly, in order to lead the country and the world. It doesn't ask whether a president needs to understand how the Internet is transforming the economy and the world. Those are two different questions, two different polls.

Ask the latter question and I'll answer differently than I did in this poorly phrased poll.

Is Farming Changing the World?

Micah L. Sifry — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:24:54 -0400

EyeblastTV (Danny Glover) makes a fair point: people who read techPresident aren't a representative sample of the population. And we're not suggesting that this simple internet poll is scientific. We put it up to help continue and perhaps crystallize the debate over how much it matters that the next President "get it."

But Danny is stretching things by comparing this discussion to one that farmers might have, or retailers, etc, about how important their arena might be for the next President to understand. Is agriculture undergoing a radical transformation that affects the rest of society? Are there dramatic changes happening in retail? Well, one could argue that biotech and global warming ARE indeed affecting agriculture, with deep societal impacts. And one could argue that the retail industry is facing jarring changes, driven by the internet in fact. But these sectors of the economy, and others like banking, law, manufacturing, etc, aren't in and of themselves producing society-changing effects on the scale of the internet. If anything, it's the other way around, the internet is also transforming these sectors of the economy.

As my colleague Andrew Rasiej likes to say, "technology isn't another piece of the pie, it's the pan." And what we're arguing here is that the changes being fostered by new technologies of communication and sharing ARE producing changes on the scale of the invention of the printing press.

Mike Turk makes a bunch of great points on this question over at The Next Right, commenting on Danny's post:

The Internet is a major driver of the US economy. Jobs being added, directly and indirectly, due to expansion of telecom services and broadband are a large percentage of net new jobs added in the last 7 years. That's a major piece of the US economy directly tied to the Internet.

Yet your argument is it's just a communications tool, so he doesn't have to get it.

If your understanding of manufacturing was so fundamentally flawed that you didn't know the difference between auto manufacturers and appliance manufacturers, that would be a problem. Yet we are willing to write off ignorance of a vast section of the economy and the players that operate in that space as a quirk of age or of "not using the product."

There is no way his political advisors would allow him to go out there and talk about Maytag and Ford in the same sentence if he didn't fudamentally understand the difference between the two. For that matter, they wouldn't let him confuse ABC, NBC and CBS (other communications vehicles). But forgiving his ignorance of major players in the Internet space is ok?

Local Politics

Justine Lam — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:58:08 -0400

Thanks for highlighting that article by Chuck Raasch. The next phase in politics and technology will be utilizing internet/mobile tools to bring back civic participation in our local communities wherever we live.

As former eCampaign Director for Ron Paul's presidential campaign, I learned how key it was for our supporters to be involved on the local level of politics and government. If we had a larger base of political support, we could have done better in primaries than we did otherwise. Our supporters would've understood the rules of the game in every state.

Local politics is the vision that our Republic was founded upon, local community control, individuals organizing to make decisions about their communities & their lives, not a strong centralized federal government in Washington, DC making our decisions.

Currently, I work at Politicker.com an online political news site which is dedicated to covering the very local to state level politics in all 50 states (we have 15 states thus far). Our journalists on-the-ground in each state cover the political news and our anonymous "Wally Edge" gives us insider coverage.

Hopefully, we can help to educate and inform a politically passionate citizenry to become more engaged with politics in their different localities -- which will then trickle up in the political system.

Justine Lam
Director of Online Marketing
http://www.politicker.com

Skewed Results

EyeblastTV — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:22:01 -0400

No one here, at a site called techPresident and frequented by techies, should be surprised to see that the vote is 60 percent in favor of a president needing "to have firsthand experience with the Internet in order to lead." Now step out of your bubble and commission this poll in the heartland. I'm sure the result would be quite different.

Ask this question on a site called farmPresident, and I'm sure 60 percent would say the next president needs to have firsthand experience in agriculture to lead the country, too. You'd get similar results at factoryPresident, retailPresident, bankPresident, lawPresident, WallStreetPresident, etc.

Everyone thinks his or her corner of the world is more important than the next guy's. That doesn't make it so. A good president actually needs a basic understanding of just about everything in the economy and the world -- and a whole roster of advisers who can fill in the gaps.

I picked option No. 2 in this poll, though in reality my personal view falls somewhere between No. 2 and No. 3. For more of my thoughts on this debate, click on over to my post at The Next Right and subsequent elaboration in the comments.

Priorities people!

junothiall — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:25:01 -0400

Just to lay all the cards on the table, before anyone asks "Who the heck is this person and how do they quailfy themselves? - I am a 41-year-old professor of management information systems with a BSc and an MS in Computer Science and currently pursuing my PhD in MIS. I encourage my students to consider the full impact of technology, good and bad. I'm not saying I have all the answers but let's at least ask all the questions?

Aren't we assuming that just because Sen. Obama is younger he has a better grasp of technology and that he obtained that grasp all on his own? He's got great people around him to do that for him. Anybody can sound intelligent and well-informed after reading a report which has been prepared for them by an expert (Helllooo- speechwriters)

Comparing understanding the internet to being able to defeat terrorists? Come on. A bit simplistic don't you think?

But if you want to simplify - then let's really simplify:
To my understanding, the Internet is an INTERconnectnedness of NETworks, so really he must have first hand knowledge of a network and how to run cable. The basics of networks are interconnected computers so he must know how to configure a network too, eh? Then, while we're at it, he may as well have first hand experience programming, doing hardware repairs and sautering motherboards.

Okay....so the connectedness of a POTUS is that important? How about being connected to real life and real life issues? Priorities seem to be a bit skewed, but this is the JUST the techpresident site isn't it? I guess that's why there aren't any other opinions expressed here. Too bad. Otherwise there might be some real well-rounded discussions here on a daily basis. Usually even on a one subject dedicated site, other opinions, realities, and views are accepted, considered, and even valued.

But I digress....

That Sen. Obama (and Sen. Edwards according to Ms. Russo), have a FIRM understanding of the Internet's impact and that they both use that knowledge everyday to lead their states? Yeah, right.
Ever heard of security risks, hackers, viruses? (Ms. Russo, If Sen. Edwards has such a firm understanding of internet issues, why did he need to hire you?)

I doubt Sen. Obama is leading anything on a day-to-day basis for his state right now even with the much-vaunted internet connectivity. I'm sure with the non-stop personal campaigning and developing of his personal positions (of course he's got a FIRM understanding of both of these - Rev. Wright are you still there?) he has a firm grasp on what is happening in the campaign and where he'll be going strategically next week...again, yeah, right.

Our society today is one of immediate gratification and wanting to have perfect people holding high political positions that will do the right thing, right now. Most of us have trouble leading our own livesand relationships, let alone having a FIRM understanding of politics and how government works. The American divorce rate has been very high and mostly occurs in the early years of the marriage when reality sets in.

We are still in the courting phase folks, it may seem like we've committed and accepted the promise of engagement (The official date of acceptance is, of course, November 4th, 2008), with the ceremony to occur the following January.

Thereafter follows, hopefully, a first 100 days honeymoon.
Then the real nitty-gritty begins. Will a divorce of the election-induced euphoria happen or will we try to work it out? Only thing to remember - we're locked in for four years, no quickie out-of-country divorces available.

If the bad feelings begin, do we not realize that this all-powerful force (the Internet) we are buying into can tear down just as quickly as it can build up.

The Internet/email/Google are fine for the "haves" to build their ego and FIRM understanding of the world upon, the "have-nots" are still looking at you like you've gotten a lobotomy. We know that there is life outside the internet and that having an understanding of it may help, but it does nothing for leading a farm or a small town.

Also bear in mind that the population is growing older, not younger. Does Sen. Obama have a FIRM understanding and personal hands-on experience of how social security, Medicare, Medicaid, and Disability work? Not from what I read and understand. He has served on the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions for a year. Wow.

To be fair - those who have served in Congress will most likely not have personal experience with this either- their golden years will be very comfortable I'm sure. His contemporaries do have the age/wisdom/ experience advantage though. The median age in Congress right now is 60, but Even if a substantial number of incumbents are beaten, you're only going to see this median age drop ever so slightly.

According to the group-think expressed here, he needs a "working hands-on" knowledge of Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid/ Disability SSDI) in order to lead this country correct? This country and its people grow older everyday. This is may not be a global issue, but it is an issue here at home and, I imagine, around the world as well.

So I say again: Okay....so the connectedness of a POTUS is that important? How about being connected to real life and real life issues? Priorities seem to be a bit skewed, but this is the JUST the techpresident site isn't it? I guess that's why there aren't any other opinions expressed here. Too bad. Otherwise there might be some real well-rounded discussions here on a daily basis. Usually even on a one subject dedicated site, other opinions, realities, and views are accepted, considered, and even valued.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
It's the HUMAN-CONNECTEDNESS, not the technology connectedness that will power any change, the technology helps but the people pdirect it. Technology is the tool, not the answer.

Does anyone still understand the value of face-to-face
"technology" - it's an oldie, but a goodie.

Oh come on!

Freedomfighter — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 10:16:47 -0400

You know this poll has a built in bias. ITS AN ONLINE POLL!

I am also certain four out of five persons responding, are under the age of 25 and are unaware of how an off the internet organization functions.
Even today, there are many people who use text messaging and cellphones instead of the internet.

It would be interesting how people here on TechPresident would function for a week if they were denied access tot he internet. How would they connect with the world?

In regards to McCain, saying he is "illiterate" about computers may be more politics than we realize. Many older voters, who are more likely to show up, consider themselves computer illiterate.

A candidate with

thegreathal — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 04:09:52 -0400

A candidate with "a firm understanding of the Internet's impact" understands by definition what is necessary. Of course, I don't see that practically occurring in this day and age, and would certainly begrudge my candidate a bit if they lacked their own knowledge.

But you know this isn't just a McCain thing. Ralph Nader still uses a typewriter.

Are we really discounting the impact of computers?

liberalart — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:16:07 -0400

@Freedomfighter:

... the computer can help officials but it is really more of a secretary's tool...The computer is still largely a way of inventorying information.

Another means of inventorying information is an obscure technology called books. The cultural elites always going on about how great books are, but frankly I don't trust anyone who's read one. Why read a book when your secretary can give you the gist...

What's really sad about this comment is it's total lack of any sort of business understanding... Republicans are supposed to be business friendly candidates? Ask any CEO if the computers or internet have impacted their business. The internet is more than Amazon and Wikipedia, it's the primary conduit of information and interaction for our economy. When's the last time someone kept books, traded stocks or conducted any financial transaction on paper; the 1970s?

The point isn't that McCain has a secretary to read to him, it's that computers and the internet have changed the rate and means of information storage, exchange and human interaction for all of civilization.

Techie or Non, just because some folks don't understand it or have no access doesn't matter. Some folks in the US still don't have access to running water. But then, why turn on a spigot when your secretary can bring you a bucket of water?

The most absurd thing about Freedomfighter's post is that he made it on the internet using a computer. Clearly, computers have more uses than porn, minesweeper and itunes, and the next President needs to understand that...

steve ofner | liberal art

So Tracy-

Nick S — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:14:42 -0400

How did John Edwards' mastery of the interwebs work out for him? Oh, that's right.

Ditto!

junothiall — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:34:20 -0400

Freedomfighter - ditto, ditto, ditto!

FF said:"The fact is, the computer can help officials but it is really more of a secretary's tool where the executive simply asks,"what emails did I get today?" and "send an email to so-and-so about the meeting".

I am certain McCain makes use of a computer but it would not surprise me if he does not have one. The computer is still largely a way of inventorying information."

And the internet is filled with unreliable information that you need to check, double-check, and triple-check to make sure you get your facts and figures correct.

War is deadly, that's why everybody wants peace.

It was once thought humans were the only creatures who fought wars, but closer observation of animal life has discovered wars between ant colonies and chimpanzee tribes.

In terms of just outright numbers:

Civil War - 363,020 Northern dead, 281,104 wounded
199,110 Southern dead, 137, 102 wounded
71.8 Billion between Union and Confederate dollars,
$970Billion today
WWI - 126,000 US dead, 134,300 wounded, 4526 POW, cost $33Billion in 1918 dollars, $465B today
WWII - 408,306 US dead, 670, 846 wounded, cost $360Billion in 1945 dollars, $429B today
Vietnam - 58219 US dead, 153,356 wounded, cost$111Billion in 1975 dollars, $440B today
Iraq(03 to 08) 4109 US dead, 29,978 wounded, cost $845Billion

Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it. Before y'all jabber on about Iraq, study what we did to ourselves on this continent in one war.

McCain's "illiteracy"

junothiall — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:35:09 -0400

I agree Micah,
Let's see - a president that understands that he doesn't know enough about a subject to honestly admit it...or someone who cho claims that they are up-to-date?
Let's be honest here - do we really want our president online anyway? Say Russia/China/etc.... really pisses him/her off at 3am and there isn't anyone around to proofread or filter.....can you say" Let's start a war over an e-mail" or inappropriate post???

Someone at that level has more than enough to worry about other than "Should I really get more up-to-speed on these newer programs or should I read the reports in the red-box?" Hmmmmm, I know what my preference is. They get to that level by having someone or multiple people t do that stuff for them - does a CEO do his own email, uh- no.

I get Ms. Russo's and "her minions out there" enthusiasm, however, in her/their rush to brand all those who don't use the internet as much as she/they do, it is forgotten that knowing about something and having to do something are two different things.
Obviously they've never had a real office job or been in the military or medical field or you'd know that everyone has to know certain basic procedures (such as emergency procedures, where the bathroom is, where the local restaurants are) but that doesn't mean you have to use them on a daily basis, e.g. not everyday is an emergency(no matter what the boss says); if you mostly travel for work or telecommute, you don't care where the bathrooms are; if you pack your lunch, you won't need a restaurant.Medical and military personnel all need to know certain basic facts, but just because my neurosurgeon doesn't use email doesn't mean I won't trust him to remove that tumor on my brain. Do I want a General sending an orer to attack through an e-mail? Ummmm, no.

I realize that the "Tracy's" of the world may think that these are simplistic examples, but so is their statement that you won't vote for a president who doesn't know how to use the internet.

I guess Ms. Russo didn't vote for Gore then either - even though he "created it" LOL

Don't overstate the case

Freedomfighter — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:37:42 -0400

This type of discussion is immensely frustrating because people quite literally do no understand the gap between non-techies and techies.

Computers and the internet have proven great for the following:
porn
music
movies
games

The fact is, the computer can help officials but it is really more of a secretary's tool where the executive simply asks,"what emails did I get today?" and "send an email to so-and-so about the meeting".

I am certain McCain makes use of a computer but it would not surprise me if he does not have one. The computer is still largely a way of inventorying information.

I hate to tell people, but much of what computers do, have only come around in the last ten years and much of what computers have done has not really helped people.

When I see the antiwar movement talk about how "bad" the Iraq war is, I ask, can you name a war with a better outcome than the Iraq war? They can't because they have not read any history.

Yes we can, yes they can

Micah L. Sifry — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:56:53 -0400

AndyCarvin and sull:
It's Twitter, so anyone can join in. If you want to post a question to the candidates' representatives, you can use the #pdfdebate tag. I'm sure Ana will be looking at what bubbles up. And if one of the third-party candidates wants to chime in with their answers, they can do that too by using the #pdfbeta tag. Who's stopping them? Not us. Just use common sense, folks, and don't spam the participants.
Micah

Why No 3rd Party?

sull — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 15:53:54 -0400

I am interested to know why this is not extended to Ralph Nader or other 3rd party candidates?